middle toe is turned

LEWIN · **Joined:** Sat May 07, 2011 9:13 am **Posts:** 5

I have a really nice young black mottle belgian d'uccle roo that I was thinking of showing but noticed his middle toe is turned to the left half way up will a judge disqualify him for that or just loose points? thank you for reading

oozcorpse · **Joined:** Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:15 am **Posts:** 2715

to the forum = I see this is your first post.

re your question =

Sorry but that is a serious defect and at the least he would be 'overlooked' and not placed but normally he would be disqualified.

Now = some will say “Oh that happened because of a temperature spike at hatching” or some other excuse, but it is a defect, and more often than not it comes from one of the parent birds.

Personally I wouldn’t use him to breed from as he could and probably will pass on the crooked toes, but if he is the only boy you have and otherwise is a good bird – use him this coming season and only keep the young with straight toes. and then dont use him again.

there was an interesting article some few years ago on the findings of a breeding study that went over about 10years using Silkies Pekins and a larger breed [cant remember which large breed] - it showed clearly that if you breed from birds with bent toes you will hatch birds with bent toes at about 50%

LEWIN · **Joined:** Sat May 07, 2011 9:13 am **Posts:** 5

You have helped me thank you, he was not born with the his middle toe turned to the left half way up it happened some time in the last 2 months because I cleaned his feet in march and it was just normal then so how can it turn like that?

OakA · **Posted:** Sun May 08, 2011 7:55 pm

Soozorps has given you good advice.
However if it is a result of a recent accident it will not be passed on, the only way to really know is to test mate him and if ANY chicks show the fault, cull them and him.
As to showing, he would certainly be passed over for any award, it could be an accident, or incubator problem or it could be genetic, the judge does not know and has no way of telling, thus he would pass in favour of another bird.
IF it genuinely is the result of some accident you MIGHT get away with showing him in a breed pair, that is if he were superior, you may or may not win as it is at the judges discretion if he felt is was as a result of injury or a break he may give them the benifit of the doubt in the hope you breed SOUND offspring, he would need to be carefully balanced to the correct female to show the pairing would produce outstanding or superior offspring.If by chance the pair met in competition and equal pair of fowls showing the balance and selection to produce top offspring BUT with sound feet, you would again have to take a 2nd place or maybe would be passed over again any award.

LEWIN · **Joined:** Sat May 07, 2011 9:13 am **Posts:** 5

You have helped me thank you, I do want to breed him as he is a super rooster so I will check all his chicks well.

oozcorpse · **Joined:** Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:15 am **Posts:** 2715

Oaklands wrote:

or incubator problem or it could be genetic,

no = incubator prob is an excuse to cover up genetic defects as I stated in my post earlier in this thread

I stand by this statement well and truly – if anyone wants to give beyond doubt 10+yrs of scientific evidence that a bent toe IS the result of incubator problems I will listen then but not before
[yes I have HAD my caffeine today]

LEWIN wrote:

You have helped me thank you, I do want to breed him as he is a super rooster so I will check all his chicks well.

you are welcome :-D

and YES - as I said earlier = as he is a good bird, breed from him and cull ALL chicks with bent toes

OakA · **Posted:** Tue May 10, 2011 11:34 am

Sorry Soozorps, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
I built my first incubator, no I didn't buy it, BUILT it in 1962, adapted plans from an old Hot water model used in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
New modern incubators are now fan forced and some breeders run them at to high a temperature.
The recommendation used to be 103 F, now we know that is to high, it was amendeda few years ago to 101F now we run them even lower.
I don't disagree that the problem is often genetic, but if the lines have not produced it before, or under natural incubation under a hen then I tend to feel the problem is in the incubator running at to high a temp and incorrect humidity.
Many long toed breeds and fine boned bantams tend to shrink in the leg/toe tendons if exposed to a temp that is too high.
I was interested to read a post here on someone having the problem, as they were keen to get the chicks out into a brooder and fed/watered etc.They solved the problem by leaving the chicks in the incubator until properly dry ( at least 24 hrs) this they reasoned as the chick had re-absorbed yolk to live on and as a result had no further bent toes.
My point is there could be many and varied reasons for most things, although not always likely but not necessarily always of genetic origin.
I would use the ckl as I recommended and if the problem persists, cull him and his progeny as it would then be proven to be genetic in origin.

LEWIN · **Joined:** Sat May 07, 2011 9:13 am **Posts:** 5

Thanks for the advice very helpful

DOOFS · **Joined:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:03 pm **Posts:** 1

I had a ripper langshan hen that had 2 serious turned toes on the one foot but she never bred a single chick with the same defect and she bred many chicks over the 4 years I had her 3 of her sons won a few prizes and 2 not minor prizes so I don't believe it was a genetic issue

LEWIN · **Joined:** Sat May 07, 2011 9:13 am **Posts:** 5

That is good to know very helpful

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