AUSTRALIAN POULTRY FORUM™

I have lost many birds this season around 30 or so due to heat, or so I thought and I could not understand why.I have never lost birds like now.I have had numerous conversations with my vets over this due to frustration mainly.This is what we have come up with due to the loss of CO2(carbon dioxide) from panting to keep cool,which upsets the pH balance of the body which leads to acidosis.The pH (being out of range sets off a chain of events in various systems in the body, none of which are desirable). I was compounding this also by giving a dose of Apple cider vinegar once a week to help maintain good health as that is what I have been told by many breeders and also found recommended in many books.This is very wrong to do, if you live in a hot dry area as you are killing your birds by doing this. I was also giving them ice in the water everyday, twice a day and then fresh water late in the evenings to keep them cool.You ask what is wrong with that? Nothing except, I should have been giving electrolytes and vitamins in the water.These birds are in shade and have well ventilated pens but I was loosing so many.Even friends thought I was not looking after my birds properly.Turns out you should never give apple cider vinegar to birds in hot, dry environment.You should be giving bicarbonate of soda or baking soda in there water instead.The bicarbonate of soda in the drinking water is a way to counteract some of the acidosis the chicken will create with the panting (blowing off too much CO2) give them a sprinkle of vitamins and electrolytes in the chunks of ice for the added support. They do frequent watery poops (to cool themselves in hot weather) which adds to their loss of natural electrolytes, just as you could have happen with diarrhea and dehyration. The cold water with electrolytes and vitamin ice block helps them to cool down. I have noticed that when one of the girls shared a watery poop with me on my leg the other day, and I was amazed at how hot it was! I make sure they have lots of good fresh cool water available so they don't get dehydrated from the watery poops. They don't sweat, so they use that method to help eliminate heat from their bodies with there very heavy feather coats. I really hopes this helps someone else and know one has the losses I have.I threw the apple cider vinegar away and I will never use it again.

how rude!!!!
I know how well you look after yr birds
AND
we have had a couple of conversations re electrolytes/vitamins over the last year or so

thank you for posting this info it will definitely help others

question = will you use Apple Cider Vinegar in the cooler months?? Or never again??

another question = do you think we are just over technicalising the whole bird breeding thing?? can PM answer if you want

Hi soozorp,
you get that with some people it happens to us all.Makes you question the friendship! Good to have another breeder to bounce thoughts off when needed.

No I wont be using apple cider vinegar again.Something else you need to know before you give apple cider vinegar to poultry is your water pH level as that is also a contributing factor to acidosis when using apple cider vinegar.Also make sure there is never any wet food that has gone sour.Say a mash you fed in the morning and has sat all day.If you smell it,it will be putrid.Make sure you just feed enough that is gone after 5 minutes. It can also help set a turn of events and demise towards acidosis.So many factors can contribute.
We have and I use both on young chickens and also sick.Never though of the need to put it through the main water line from the small tanks this pen runs off..

Who knows we may well be but does it really matter.To me no.I do as I please.

Interesting theory Mummaroo,

The only problems I have with it are as follows.

It is true that panting will cause acidosis in the birds. However, the kidneys have a role in this and act as a buffer, and would neutralise the acidosis in my opinion- unless of course they were so severely dehydrated that the kidneys shut down. If this were the case the birds would die anyway.

Also, I'd question the role of apple cider vinegar in the acidosis. Yes, it turns the water acidic but if it were too acidic the birds wouldn't drink it- try increasing the concentration and you'll soon see them turn their noses up at it. And if you're only using it once weekly it is extremely unlikely to have a long term acidotic effect.

If the birds are panting that hard that you're worried about acidosis, I'd be more worried about hyperthermia- they are more likely to overheat and go into organ meltdown before they die of acidosis.

I guess the only way to be sure is to get one of these birds near death and measure its core body temperature and its blood gases and pH at the same time- know of anyone doing research at a vet university??

Interesting thoughts nonetheless and something to think about.

Cheers

Parvo

Hi Parvo,
You might be right but this is what 3 vets in one practise has told me so I have no reason to doubt this.I did say there were other contributing factors also.

I have heard of ice in the water before so what would you mix with the water before freezing

the electrolytes and vitamins as mummaroo said she will be doing this from now on

I once said to mummaroo = and she will laugh when she reads this =
"I have found no proven scientific evidence that Apple Cider vinegar works. You know I have never used it but will give it a go and get back to you” remember my ‘get back to you’ mumaroo?? “3 months later and no damn difference so I wont waste any more money”

I give my birds vitamins in their water all year round life long unless they are being medicated but after the discussions mummaroo and I have had re electrolytes this last year or so = I will use them as well the next lot of heat we get and see if it helps – which I think it just might and the small amount you use wont do any harm



An invitation is extended to all that have used electrolytes to post here regards the reasons and outcomes

thanks

Electrolytes are useful when birds are stressed, during temperature extremes, transport stress or when unwell and not eating drinking, particularly if they have diarrhoea or regurgitation.

I would not recommend their use year-round, but I wouldn't use vitamins in water year-round either ( Sorry Soozorps ). If birds are on a good balanced diet and have free pick by grazing then that's all they need except during periods of increased demand eg moulting, illness breeding etc.

In-water vitamins have questionable efficacy because they rapidly breakdown, particularly if exposed to warm temps or direct sunlight.
They also provide a great medium for bacteria and other pathogens to grow, especially if birds defaecate in the water.

I think you're better off placing vitamins in a favourite food item as needed- that way they eat it quickly before it goes off and before bugs get a chance to grow in it.

The old adage- if it ain't broke, don't fix it certainly applies- ie if it's working for you, don't change it. Everyone can make up their own mind.

no offence taken as after I posted that statement I realised I don’t actually remember to put it in the water daily – more like I remember twiceish a week. After years of being forced to have our birds exclusively in deep litter pens and having to bring them all their greens we have only recently been able to let our birds out into a paddock [10acres] to forage and the water supply there is an old large tub [cleaned every other day] so they will get even less vitamins < an ironic shrug that one

We are lucky that the in pen water containers are all in the shade and have their own little verandahs so no bird can sit above and poop into it. Actually everyone should ensure no bird can poop in their own water

I totally agree with parvo on this one.I will only be using the multivitamins and electrolytes one the days of major stress for my birds when there is not cold water. I have run into trouble because of the heat here.I am talking about mid forty's and when the only water you have is also hot.Some days the water here that comes up from the bore 200ft below is very warm and other days it will be very cold.It is on the days that I cant get cold water and it is in the mid forty's and I have no ice left I run into trouble.With 20 odd pens spread around the yard and another 35 in a big shed it is hard to have enough ice day in, day out and the temperature between night and day is a max of 5 degrees difference it does not give anyone animal or human a break.Not only chooks it is all the livestock we can run into trouble with.It is not an artesian bore but some days it might as well be.I am just saying be very aware.
I personally wont be using apple cider vinegar for the above reasons.Also the pH in my water is very high so that has a big effect on things here.So that pH the heat and water and apple cider vinegar and dry air are all not a good mix for me.We are in total drought and everyone else has and are still getting beautiful rain.maybe one day.We have only had 7mm since Christmas and it was October the last lot of good rain.We have 1 dam and it is low so we have to use our bore for all water.
I posted this to make people more aware of acidosis.I am very aware that my circumstances are quiet unique.Not many people would face the problems here we have.Just be cautious on what you give your poultry and your environment around you.Don't go giving your birds medications they don't need.If in doubt talk to your vet or vets.I do over coffee when they are free as I have a great working and personal friendship with mine. I have for 20 odd years now.So just read the information, absorb it and park it in the back of your brain and try not to go of half cocked so to speak.